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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
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Dixon_Hill
Sr. Producer
Posts: 954
Registered: 11-06-2008
Message 11 of 44
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Ah yes, our future Queen, he did say something like that didn't he? *grins* He was probably trying to take it up a notch from when his brother-in-law Ari Behn called his daughter a "Golden Half Meter" xD As for the US, I think you actually are moving in somewhat the right direction or at least one that is similar to the approach we have, Government owned companies. Instead of just making ten people richer then Richy Rich, just dump the earnings into a fund and voila.....socialism  Of course, my government owns companies like StatoilHydro while you have GM *pokes and grins*
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06-04-2009 09:08 AM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
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jforgizmo
Associate Producer
Posts: 5682
Registered: 10-03-2008
Message 13 of 44
Viewed 1,223 times
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jerthemessiah, you might want to consider the possibility that, unlike you, they not only understand where money comes from, but have the liberty, proportional representation, and democracy so that their vote on what to do with it really counts. They have a higher standard of living, live longer, are healthier, and are more educated (we started losing our standard of living in lockstep with our graducation rates). Their workforce is not losing its mobility due to underwater mortgages, and their productivity is not going down due to failing education. Your earlier post implied that you think social democracy is evil. We got that already. Your post asking if they think money grows on trees is simultaneously tiresome and offensive. We really do get your insults. It's just that insults are no substitute for discussion or understanding. Take insults to the flame board.
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06-09-2009 01:22 AM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
[ Edited ]
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hfishjr81
Sr. Producer
Posts: 4011
Registered: 10-23-2008
Message 14 of 44
Viewed 1,220 times
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jerthemessiah wrote:
Socialism at it's very core is evil.
"Um, ok folks ... the fish and bread platter is a buck fifty you can super size it with a drink for only a dollar more!" Message Edited by hfishjr81 on 06-09-2009 02:55 AM
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06-09-2009 02:08 AM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
[ Edited ]
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Dixon_Hill
Sr. Producer
Posts: 954
Registered: 11-06-2008
Message 15 of 44
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*grins* If we didn't have a way to pay for it then it would've been an even more impressive feat xD Oh and money grows in funds and under the ground, not in trees! 
With a quirky contrariness as deeply etched in the national character as the fjords carved into its rugged landscape, Norway has thrived by going its own way. When others splurged, it saved. When others sought to limit the role of government, Norway strengthened its cradle-to-grave welfare state. And in the midst of the worst global downturn since the Depression, Norway’s economy grew last year by just under 3 percent. The government enjoys a budget surplus of 11 percent. By comparison, the United States is expected to chalk up a fiscal deficit this year equal to 12.9 percent of its gross domestic product and push its total debt to $11 trillion, or 65 percent of the size of its economy. Norway is a relatively small country with a largely homogeneous population of 4.6 million and the advantages of being a major oil exporter. It counted $68 billion in oil revenue last year as prices soared to record levels. Even though prices have sharply declined, the government is not particularly worried. That is because Norway avoided the usual trap that plagues many energy-rich countries. Instead of spending its riches lavishly, it passed legislation ensuring that oil revenue went straight into its sovereign wealth fund, state money that is used to make investments around the world. Now its sovereign wealth fund is close to being the largest in the world, despite losing 23 percent last year because of investments that declined. Norway’s relative frugality stands in stark contrast to Britain, which spent most of its North Sea oil revenue — and more — during the boom years. Government spending rose to 47 percent of G.D.P., from 42 percent in 2003. By comparison, public spending in Norway fell to 40 percent from 48 percent of G.D.P. “The U.S. and the U.K. have no sense of guilt,” said Anders Aslund, an expert on Scandinavia at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “But in Norway, there is instead a sense of virtue. If you are given a lot, you have a responsibility.” Eirik Wekre, an economist who writes thrillers in his spare time, describes Norwegians’ feelings about debt this way: “We cannot spend this money now; it would be stealing from future generations.” Mr. Wekre, who paid for his house and car with cash, attributes this broad consensus to as the country’s iconoclasm. “The strongest man is he who stands alone in the world,” he said, quoting Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen. Still, even Ibsen might concede that it is easier to stand alone when your nation has benefited from oil reserves that make it the third-largest exporter in the world. The money flowing from that black gold since the early 1970s has prompted even the flintiest of Norwegians to relax and enjoy their good fortune. The country’s G.D.P. per person is $52,000, behind only Luxembourg among industrial democracies. As in much of the rest of the world home prices have soared here, tripling this decade. But there has been no real estate crash in Norway because there were few mortgage lending excesses. After a 15 percent correction, prices are again on the rise. Unlike Dublin or Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, where work has stopped on half-built skyscrapers and stilled cranes dot the skylines, Oslo retains a feeling of modesty reminiscent of a fishing village rather than a Western capital, with the recently opened $800 million Opera House one of the few signs of opulence. Norwegian banks, said Arne J. Isachsen, an economist at the Norwegian School of Management, remain largely healthy and prudent in their lending. Banks represent just 2 percent of the economy and tight public oversight over their lending practices have kept Norwegian banks from taking on the risk that brought down their Icelandic counterparts. But they certainly have not closed their doors to borrowers. Mr. Isachsen, like many in Norway, has a second home and an open credit line from his bank, which he recently used to buy a new boat. Some here worry that while a cabin in the woods and a boat may not approach the excesses seen in New York or London, oil wealth and the state largesse have corrupted Norway’s once-sturdy work ethic. “This is an oil-for-leisure program,” said Knut Anton Mork, an economist at Handelsbanken in Oslo. A recent study, he pointed out, found that Norwegians work the fewest hours of the citizens of any industrial democracy. “We have become complacent,” Mr. Mork added. “More and more vacation houses are being built. We have more holidays than most countries and extremely generous benefits and sick leave policies. Some day the dream will end.” But that day is far off. For now, the air is clear, work is plentiful and the government’s helping hand is omnipresent — even for those on the margins. Just around the corner from Norway’s central bank, for instance, Paul Bruum takes a needle full of amphetamines and jabs it into his muscular arm. His scabs and sores betray many years as a heroin addict. He says that the $1,500 he gets from the government each month is enough to keep him well-fed and supplied with drugs. Mr. Bruum, 32, says he has never had a job, and he admits he is no position to find one. “I don’t blame anyone,” he said. “The Norwegian government has provided for me the best they can.” To Ms. Halvorsen, the finance minister, even the underside of the Norwegian dream looks pretty good compared to the economic nightmares elsewhere. “As a socialist, I have always said that the market can’t regulate itself,” she said. “But even I was surprised how strong the failure was.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/business/global/14frugal.html?_r=1&ref=business http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/sovereign_wealth_funds/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier Message Edited by Dixon_Hill on 09-06-2009 05:54 AM
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06-09-2009 02:15 AM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
[ Edited ]
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equaltreatment2
Researcher
Posts: 226
Registered: 03-10-2009
Message 16 of 44
Viewed 1,190 times
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We are perhaps missing the point. We cannot copy Norway, or Alaska for that matter. Norway has large natural resources and few people same as Alaska (Norway has about as many people as Massachusetts). Norway has cheap power from hydroelectricity and is a net oil and gas exporter. All not true in the USA. When oil runs out, or better yet the world shifts to using non-carbon fuels, Norway may be in trouble. Norway takes nationalized oil revenues and finances an investment fund to pay for stuff out of. Alaska cuts checks to citizens every year (and they pay no state income tax or state sales tax). Again, we can do neither as a country. There is much to copy from Norway however. They have open markets, low levels of regulation, strong property rights, stable currency, a lower corporate tax rate and a flat rate tax system that while high, is flat. I am not sure about Norway but Sweden has partially privatized social security as have other European countries a move we should adopt here. Finally, not all is well. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2003 Norway had between $16,000 and $22,000 per capita in disposable income while the US had $25,000. According to the Danish Finance Ministry, individual consumption in 2005 Norway was at $150,000 Danish Krones (Highest of all Nordic countries) and the US was at $195,000. This includes all public financed expenditures so it adjusts for a gap in Norwegian consumption because they do not have to buy services that Americans do (apples to apples). According to a KPMG March 2005 study, after adjusting for taxes and cost of living, Norway is second to last (Denmark is last) in income per capita in Europe causing much consternation in Norway at the time. According to the Luxembourg Wealth Survey Project, Norwegians are “net wealth” poor at less than 10,000 Euros per capita compared to nearly 100,000 per capita Euros for Americans. None of this suggests Norwegians should change anything, they like it. Just some facts to keep in mind and I’ll finish where I started. We cannot copy Norway. The conditions and temperament are very different. Nor would it work in my opinion. Our system is working it just needs to drop a little blood on the floor now and then, or perhaps the analogy is an enema, we need to clean out the bad every so often before moving forward. ET2 Message Edited by equaltreatment2 on 06-10-2009 02:12 PM
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06-10-2009 03:02 PM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
[ Edited ]
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Dixon_Hill
Sr. Producer
Posts: 954
Registered: 11-06-2008
Message 17 of 44
Viewed 1,172 times
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equaltreatment2 wrote:
We are perhaps missing the point. We cannot copy Norway, or Alaska for that matter. Norway has large natural resources and few people same as Alaska (Norway has about as many people as Massachusetts). Norway has cheap power from hydroelectricity and is a net oil and gas exporter. All not true in the USA. When oil runs out, or better yet the world shifts to using non-carbon fuels, Norway may be in trouble. Norway takes nationalized oil revenues and finances an investment fund to pay for stuff out of. Alaska cuts checks to citizens every year (and they pay no stae income tax or state sales tax). Again, we can do neither as a country. There is much to copy from Norway however. They have open markets, low levels of regulation, strong property rights, stable currency, a lower corporate tax rate and a flat rate tax system that while high, is flat. I am not sure about Norway but Sweden has partially privatized social security as have other European countries a move we should adopt here. Finally, not all is well. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2003 Norway had between $16,000 and $22,000 per capita in disposable income while the US had $25,000. According to the Danish Finance Ministry, individual consumption in 2005 Norway was at $150,000 Danish Krones (Highest of all Nordic countries) and the US was at $195,000. This includes all public financed expenditures so it adjusts for a gap in Norwegian consumption because they do not have to buy services that Americans do (apples to apples). According to a KPMG March 2005 study, after adjusting for taxes and cost of living, Norway is second to last (Denmark is last) in income per capita in Europe causing much consternation in Norway at the time. According to the Luxembourg Wealth Survey Project, Norwegians are “net wealth” poor at less than 10,000 Euros per capita compared to nearly 100,000 per capita Euros for Americans. None of this suggests Norwegians should change anything, they like it. Just some facts to keep in mind and I’ll finish where I started. We cannot copy Norway. The conditions and temperament are very different. Nor would it work in my opinion. Our system is working it just needs to drop a little blood on the floor now and then, or perhaps the analogy is an enema, we need to clean out the bad every so often before moving forward. ET2 Message Edited by equaltreatment2 on 06-10-2009 02:07 PM
First off, bad facts in a few places, our expenditure from oil is low to prevent a huge blow when the oil runs out, it's invested for the future (about 95%). Our Avg. Per Capita Income does not match with Eurostat or am I mistaken? http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-112/EN/KS-SF-08-112-EN.PDF Second, Norway can never reach US stats nor the other way around because the markets are different. For example, the average American income is about 50.00$ while the average Norwegian earnings are 84.000$ I think while looking at the flow of money, you forgot to take into account that we may not be using our full force so to speak. Oh and that cheap hydropower isn't showing on my power bills. Norway isn't perfect, saying so would be a lie and a bad one at that but the goals of Social Democracy can be reached and the Nordic countries are proving this in my opinion. The only important facts when it comes to government healthcare are really those that show how well the population does in these nations compared to places where there isn't a system to catch people when they fall and helps them back up. http://www.ssb.no/norge_en/inntekt_en.pdf http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/2006/08/15/average-income-in-the-united-states/ 
Message Edited by Dixon_Hill on 10-06-2009 04:03 PM
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06-10-2009 03:56 PM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
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equaltreatment2
Researcher
Posts: 226
Registered: 03-10-2009
Message 19 of 44
Viewed 1,155 times
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Dixon_Hill wrote:
equaltreatment2 wrote:
We are perhaps missing the point. We cannot copy Norway, or Alaska for that matter. Norway has large natural resources and few people same as Alaska (Norway has about as many people as Massachusetts). Norway has cheap power from hydroelectricity and is a net oil and gas exporter. All not true in the USA. When oil runs out, or better yet the world shifts to using non-carbon fuels, Norway may be in trouble. Norway takes nationalized oil revenues and finances an investment fund to pay for stuff out of. Alaska cuts checks to citizens every year (and they pay no stae income tax or state sales tax). Again, we can do neither as a country. There is much to copy from Norway however. They have open markets, low levels of regulation, strong property rights, stable currency, a lower corporate tax rate and a flat rate tax system that while high, is flat. I am not sure about Norway but Sweden has partially privatized social security as have other European countries a move we should adopt here. Finally, not all is well. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, in 2003 Norway had between $16,000 and $22,000 per capita in disposable income while the US had $25,000. According to the Danish Finance Ministry, individual consumption in 2005 Norway was at $150,000 Danish Krones (Highest of all Nordic countries) and the US was at $195,000. This includes all public financed expenditures so it adjusts for a gap in Norwegian consumption because they do not have to buy services that Americans do (apples to apples). According to a KPMG March 2005 study, after adjusting for taxes and cost of living, Norway is second to last (Denmark is last) in income per capita in Europe causing much consternation in Norway at the time. According to the Luxembourg Wealth Survey Project, Norwegians are “net wealth” poor at less than 10,000 Euros per capita compared to nearly 100,000 per capita Euros for Americans. None of this suggests Norwegians should change anything, they like it. Just some facts to keep in mind and I’ll finish where I started. We cannot copy Norway. The conditions and temperament are very different. Nor would it work in my opinion. Our system is working it just needs to drop a little blood on the floor now and then, or perhaps the analogy is an enema, we need to clean out the bad every so often before moving forward. ET2 Message Edited by equaltreatment2 on 06-10-2009 02:07 PM
First off, bad facts in a few places, our expenditure from oil is low to prevent a huge blow when the oil runs out, it's invested for the future (about 95%). Our Avg. Per Capita Income does not match with Eurostat or am I mistaken? http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-08-112/EN/KS-SF-08-112-EN.PDF Second, Norway can never reach US stats nor the other way around because the markets are different. For example, the average American income is about 50.00$ while the average Norwegian earnings are 84.000$ I think while looking at the flow of money, you forgot to take into account that we may not be using our full force so to speak. Oh and that cheap hydropower isn't showing on my power bills. Norway isn't perfect, saying so would be a lie and a bad one at that but the goals of Social Democracy can be reached and the Nordic countries are proving this in my opinion. The only important facts when it comes to government healthcare are really those that show how well the population does in these nations compared to places where there isn't a system to catch people when they fall and helps them back up.
My stats were fine and I will clarify a few perhaps misreadings on your part. I said they invest the proceeds from oil. What I did not say was that it is quit smart. However, my point was neither, the point was that they are a net exporter and can do this investing thing and we cannot. Which leads to my second response, I did not say the electric bill was cheap I said they had cheap power. What they charge for it is a different matter. Also, I did not say but it was implied, that partially because they have abundant hydroelctric power it allows for an energy policy not duplicatable by countries in different situations. Third, the economic stats were adjusted for government spending, I specifically said they were and I found the stats for that very purpose. It would not have been fair to Norway to do otherwise. After adjusting positively for core services and necessities that Norwegians enjoy from the government, one does need to take taxes and cost of living into account and after adjusting for these Norway falls to near the bottom in Europe in income per capita. No judgemnt was meant, just a stat. What I did not say was that because expendable income is low and after adjustments income is low, this explains why the net worth stats for Norwegians were so bad. My thought was that the reader would draw this conclusion on their own. Also, this would have been just my spin on the stats meanings and it may be wrong. Finally, I agree in safety nets and healthcare for all but it is not necessary to move to socialism to achieve it nor, to my point, can we copy Norway as they are in a very different situation. Norwegians appear to like what they have and perhaps it works terrific for them but unless we discover a way to become a net exporter of energy or luckily discover a couple of hundred exploitable rivers we do not know about here in the USA we cannot copy Norway, or Alaska, we are going to have to find a different way. ET2
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06-11-2009 10:28 AM
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Re: Social Democracy rules!!
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Dixon_Hill
Sr. Producer
Posts: 954
Registered: 11-06-2008
Message 20 of 44
Viewed 1,151 times
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Third, the economic stats were adjusted for government spending, I specifically said they were and I found the stats for that very purpose. It would not have been fair to Norway to do otherwise. After adjusting positively for core services and necessities that Norwegians enjoy from the government, one does need to take taxes and cost of living into account and after adjusting for these Norway falls to near the bottom in Europe in income per capita. No judgment was meant, just a stats.
Per Capita Income is flawed at best, Norway has to be VERY careful or we will get huge amounts of inflation, the US dollar has gone from 8 Kroner a few years ago to 5 kroner about a year ago, back up to 7,5 and is now at about 6,5 kroner.... Timing is everything to say the least. purchasing power parity (PPP) 
GDP (PPP)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita Oh and I've said this once or twice or twenty times already, no wait, I'll ask instead. Could you please find a quote that shows that Norway is a Socialist state, or that we practice socialism AT ALL. Finding stats that show a nation with 4.5 million people who produce about 400.000 (millions) in GDP having a problem keeping up with a UNION who produces about 18.000.000 (Millions) in gdp is hardly something worth debating. I may not be "smart enough" for all these complex economic modells for ya but at least I can see the difference between a capitalist nation like Norway and a country that is run by socialism. It's not socialism to take care of one another, that's just being a decent human beings. We may have higher taxes but the avg. Ola still earns more then the avg Joe, even after they pay taxes and even if Ola pays 30% and Joe pays 15%... Even I can figure that much out. To say that a nation like the US, with it's ability to produce and manufacture can't do what other nations are doing, all over the world with less money per capita makes no sense to me. ...move towards socialism... right.. well at least we "socialists" can rest easy at the top of the Human development list... scary stuff...
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06-11-2009 12:24 PM
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